#1

A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:42 am
by P J | 72 Posts | 488 Points

About 4 years ago I decided to give LED grow lights a chance and started reading up on the tech. At that time there were only a few people having great results and most of them were keeping corals in Salt water tanks which I do as well. As their success was making strides I decided it was time to give a LED grow lights a chance. I started small and ordered my first light that was made by Pro Source. When it arrived I was pretty surprised at just how bright it was. At the time I was doing a lot of testing for an elite group of breeders and had what I call a "pre flower" area. It was a small tent that held 8 @ 2 gallon buckets and unsexed only plants would go in there for about 2 or so weeks until they would sex and move to the flower room. I noticed right away that the typical stretch you see with HPS or MH lighting was almost non existent. At sexing I would move the plants to the main flower area and back then plants would go under 2000 watts of HPS and boom the stretch was on. I'll also mention at that time seedlings, clones and anything else being vegged was under a Tek 4x2 8 bulb HO T5 fixture and while it did a pretty nice job of keeping node spacing tight, the heat was a little much.

I decided it was time to take a look at LED for vegging. People were having decent results with the Blackstar series lights and they had just come out with a Veg light. I knew people were also flowering plants but yield was way down so for now I was only concerned with vegging and sexing.

Node spacing was immediately shortened and plants I had grown for several years suddenly looked different. Much tighter structure, and the stems seemed to increase in volume. I was now on a mission and knew there had to be something to this new tech people were missing as the complaint department far outweighed the people who were stoked with their Very Expensive LED fixtures.

Without going in to too much detail, I started contacting contacting some of the top LED manufactures in the country. I also took a couple of business trips to meet with a few of them and quickly realized that 95% of them [at that time] were using Chinese companies to build there lights. Word on the street at that time was to Stay away from Chinese built LED grow lights. This didn't make any sense to me at all and not believing half the crap I read online I decided to contact one of the largest Chinese companies LED builders in the world.

That would be the beginning of a great relationship that continues today. I decided to take my knowledge of Saltwater LED's and current day Plant grow lights and come up with my own design based on what I knew. I'd say it was a stab in the dark, but I had the stock design this company was producing and felt I could improve on their design. I came up with what I use today. That was just a little over two years ago, and I have not looked back since.

In the past two years I have done a lot of changing in other areas of my testing facility. Food has had to change, medium has changed. LED's produce about 4 times the useable light to plants, so using the same food I did for HID lighting was burning the plants. It wasn't until I met with General Hydroponics up in Detroit two years ago that I had really any idea WTF was going on. Food was cut to about 70% of what I had done and has stuck there pretty much since.

In the last couple of years I have tested many strains under this new tech in all total somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 strains, all fully documented at another spot.

This thread is a collection of many of these strains and although not labeled in many cases, I know my plants pretty well and can tell you if one was to have a question.

At this point I can reach about 1.7GPW on average, and in some cases 3GPW.

Thanks for looking, and I hope you enjoy the show.

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Last edited Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:44 am | Scroll up

#2

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:55 am
by umbra | 780 Posts | 4085 Points

very impressive, I've seen your work for a while. Thanks for posting all the pix. Outstanding PJ


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#3

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:41 am
by Weedhopper | 1.210 Posts | 4031 Points

Nice Pics.


We all are a form of Energy,,, and Energy never dies,,IT CHANGES FORMS. Im gonna be Dirt,,your gonna be POO. LOL
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#4

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:00 am
by surfinc | 1.748 Posts | 6388 Points

so ..very interesting..love the work you do looks insane..
What kinda wattage would you suggest in a 4x4 veg room..
I was /am looking to improve my veg area .
Being a dinosaur... my thoughts was put a 400 hid instead of th T5 used currently
I ordered new bulbs for that fixture but more see it for seedlings and cuttings honestly.
Last and maybe the biggest question is are the LED currently available close to what you use or is some minor to major mods required to really enjoy the benefits that you are from these LED.?
Thanks again for sharing...always stoked to be able to look in on others work..


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#5

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:34 am
by Sunakard2000 | 59 Posts | 244 Points

Sunfinc - personaly in terms of veg lights i think most would say stay with the T5s, they put out the same lum, with less heat and less energy consumption, in a small 4x4 room the MH would drive the temps way way higher then the T5s do. i personally never went with MH for veg, i went right for the T5s since they are a fraction of the cost, bulbs are a franction the cost to replace, the t5s are a fraction of the cost to run 24hrs a day, and well the heat is hella lower with T5s, i believe it was THG who sold me on the T5s after her saying shes used and since gotten rid of a large handful of MH lights and replaced with T5s. just my thoughts, alothough i have grown plants from seed to harvest with LEDs and with T5/HPS. honestly i prefer the T5s and HPS since they are much cheaper then LEDs and knowing that the off the shelf models arnt quite up to par as compaired to lets say PJs custom models, i just dont see the benefit of paying an assload of cash for a fixture thats truely not compleatly fine tuned for MJ like PJs are... just like the medical strides states are making and how fast they are making these awesome changes involving MJ, so to is the LED industry, constantly improving their tech, but all in all i cant see myself shelling out that kinda cash for a badass fixture if its not the best it can be, id want PJs specs and currently those arnt on the shelf for everyone to buy... untill then ill stick with what i got since im getting awesome results...

BTW PJ its great to see you around the MC community. its a damn good thing to have such a knowledgeable grower and a god in the LED world in our company. as always GREAT lookin plants there buddy, you have some true skill there, a very dank green thumb lol...


As always be safe and much green mojo to you my friend!

Current Grow ~ Sunakard Indoor Perpetual Grow multiple strains ~
~Lemon Twist and Lemon OG Kush~

~~~~~~~~~ BHC Member #810 ~~~~~~~~~
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#6

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:18 am
by NorCalHal | 14 Posts | 75 Points

Looks GREAT PJ! I am surprised that you had to cut down your feed, I would think the opposite. I would think that more useable light would actually increase your feeding regimen.
For example, when I switched to Digital HID, I gained in lumens, and in turn I had to increase the feed due to more aggressive growth. Mind you, I do elevate the CO2 in the rooms, so that is definitely a huge factor. Running CO2, the plants really eat.
What size grow area are you using and how many watts to cover that area sir?


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#7

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:45 pm
by surfinc | 1.748 Posts | 6388 Points

http://www.hydrogrowled.com/Sol-4-200W-4...ht-P159C59.aspx

This light has struck my attn...
was wondering if you knew or had used this model or maker before?
Can i run these straight outta my same timer box as HID if i buy the 220 cords? seems like ?
thanks for any thoughts on the matter


<p></p>

Last edited Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:50 pm | Scroll up

#8

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:07 pm
by JackRyan420 | 288 Posts | 1272 Points

PJ,

I've been using a California Light Works (CLW) 200-watt VegMaster for vegging, and I really like it.

For a full-cycle seed-to-harvest LED, I'm considering the California Light Works 440-watt SolarStorm. It even has T8 UVB bulbs for added help during flowering.

http://californialightworks.com/product/solar-storm-440/

I have a standing offer from CLW to enter their Buyer Feedback program, which would give me the light for half-price just for trying it for 90 days. At the end of 90 days, I can keep the light for half price, or return it for a full refund. I'm thinking of giving it a try. The only catch is I have to do a detailed grow journal on their web site.

Do you have an opinion of the CLW products? Or a different recommendation?


Last edited Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:11 pm | Scroll up

#9

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:22 pm
by Justa420Friend | 633 Posts | 2284 Points

.

PJ

Could you describe the symptoms of the burn your plants experienced from LED induced over-feeding?

As a first-time LED grower -and- a first-time grower period, I'm at a double disadvantage.
Many (LED) threads refer back to standards I don't have/know (yet!) IE "traditional feeding #'s" or "looks very similar to normal nute-burn"

also

I know I've seen, somewhere, a "chart" of suggested watt per square foot (w/ft2) for: Unacceptable, Average and Above Average yield.
Do you know of that "chart" or have any rule-of-thumb #'s you grow by?





I'm using a Sol2 (200w) and a Sol1 (100w) in a small cabinet (20" x 25" x 68"high)
Based off HG's "Input Current" of 1.7A @ 110v and .58A @ 110v for the Sol2 and 1 respectively I'm at 80w/ft2
I've ramped-up from 450ppm to 750ppm over the 35 days she's been in flower and keep the lights 12"-14" from the canopy
She's swimming in a 5gal tote, DWC grow method
BS-1 is just some Bag-Seed from an oh-high-oh (100 buck) zip schwag bag


.


Your Experience is like Water
I am like Rockwool
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#10

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:41 am
by P J | 72 Posts | 488 Points

Put in 15 hrs on a new theater room for a buddy today so I am burnt. I'll get back to all of you when I have a bit more energy.
:)

Thanks for all the replies!

PJ

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#11

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:54 am
by Justa420Friend | 633 Posts | 2284 Points



??


Your Experience is like Water
I am like Rockwool
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#12

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:31 am
by surfinc | 1.748 Posts | 6388 Points

is that a tad rusty on the edge there? leaf charts...ill go look


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#13

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:18 pm
by P J | 72 Posts | 488 Points

Quote: surfinc wrote in post #4
so ..very interesting..love the work you do looks insane..
What kinda wattage would you suggest in a 4x4 veg room..



Last and maybe the biggest question is are the LED currently available close to what you use or is some minor to major mods required to really enjoy the benefits that you are from these LED.?



For a 4x4 I would use 700 watts and run 12 plants, but that's me and I veg for 21 days and flip.

Yes, their stock light is now very close to what I use which I have two of and am having great success..




Quote: NorCalHal wrote in post #6
Looks GREAT PJ! I am surprised that you had to cut down your feed, I would think the opposite. I would think that more useable light would actually increase your feeding regimen.

For example, when I switched to Digital HID, I gained in lumens, and in turn I had to increase the feed due to more aggressive growth. Mind you, I do elevate the CO2 in the rooms, so that is definitely a huge factor. Running CO2, the plants really eat.

What size grow area are you using and how many watts to cover that area sir?


Light feeds plants which makes up for a lot of the missing parameters you can not reproduce with HID lighting. I also run and have been running CO2 for a few years now, pre LED's.

Rather than get in to size and numbers, I use 61.1667 watts per plant.



Quote: surfinc wrote in post #7
http://www.hydrogrowled.com/Sol-4-200W-400W-LED-Grow-Light-P159C59.aspx

This light has struck my attn...
was wondering if you knew or had used this model or maker before?

Can i run these straight outta my same timer box as HID if i buy the 220 cords? seems like ?
thanks for any thoughts on the matter



No, I was steered in their direction from a person who does business wit one of their competitors.

I have never used them that way, but have been told yes they can be run that way.


Quote: JackRyan420 wrote in post #8
PJ,

I've been using a California Light Works (CLW) 200-watt VegMaster for vegging, and I really like it.

For a full-cycle seed-to-harvest LED, I'm considering the California Light Works 440-watt SolarStorm. It even has T8 UVB bulbs for added help during flowering.

http://californialightworks.com/product/solar-storm-440/

I have a standing offer from CLW to enter their Buyer Feedback program, which would give me the light for half-price just for trying it for 90 days. At the end of 90 days, I can keep the light for half price, or return it for a full refund. I'm thinking of giving it a try. The only catch is I have to do a detailed grow journal on their web site.

Do you have an opinion of the CLW products? Or a different recommendation?


I am and have been a member of their site/forum since it's inception. While I have not used their lights, I have spoke to the owner and watched their lights used for a minute. Keeping it real I have not seen many, if any experienced growers and lots I see struggle at just growing plants healthy.

IMHO They are Extremely over priced and I feel should be closer to about a buck a watt.I will say when I contacted them and offered to test and report they declined my offer. I wanted two lights for the price of one. No go...Their loss.



Quote: Justa420Friend wrote in post #9
.

PJ

Could you describe the symptoms of the burn your plants experienced from LED induced over-feeding?

As a first-time LED grower -and- a first-time grower period, I'm at a double disadvantage.
Many (LED) threads refer back to standards I don't have/know (yet!) IE "traditional feeding #'s" or "looks very similar to normal nute-burn"

also

I know I've seen, somewhere, a "chart" of suggested watt per square foot (w/ft2) for: Unacceptable, Average and Above Average yield.
Do you know of that "chart" or have any rule-of-thumb #'s you grow by?


I'm using a Sol2 (200w) and a Sol1 (100w) in a small cabinet (20" x 25" x 68"high)
Based off HG's "Input Current" of 1.7A @ 110v and .58A @ 110v for the Sol2 and 1 respectively I'm at 80w/ft2
I've ramped-up from 450ppm to 750ppm over the 35 days she's been in flower and keep the lights 12"-14" from the canopy
She's swimming in a 5gal tote, DWC grow method
BS-1 is just some Bag-Seed from an oh-high-oh (100 buck) zip schwag bag




The plant burn looks just like it would in any setup, burn starts at the tips of the sun leaves. The difference is I used to be able to run at closer to 1600 PPM with HID lighting and now struggle to get above 1300 and run closer to 1200 most of the time running multiple strains.

I am unfamiliar with any chart per say. I run plants at around 61 watts each and flip at 21 days from seed and 14 to 21 from clone. I am an hydro Gardner so those number would change for soil, or any other slower method. That said, that is an average number as some strains require a bit more time, and I have a couple I can flip a week after rooted.

Pretty sure I had mentioned in another thread I am stoked for ya. I really dig their tech and think once they figure out that they need some larger fixtures they will lead the world if they stay one step ahead. That could go either way though because it is such a copy cat business.
I hope their prices come down as well as I feel they are quite expensive.

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#14

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:34 pm
by P J | 72 Posts | 488 Points

Was updating a journal I am running on a new strain from my buddy Incognyto called "Matriarch" which is C99 x Pestilence. This is a first run on a seed plant that went 11 weeks. Finished one of her sisters a couple weeks ago and hope to try her in the next couple of weeks.

She did quite well.


The following contents have been linked to this post:
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#15

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:45 pm
by P J | 72 Posts | 488 Points

Quote: Justa420Friend wrote in post #11


??


I am not sure if you were asking a question on the spots, but if so that appears to be a calcium issue and not nute burn.

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#16

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:03 pm
by Justa420Friend | 633 Posts | 2284 Points

.

thank you. I've started having my Ph swing drop rather than raise (new to me) :
starting @ 5.5 and dropping = cal/mag lock-out. If this pattern continues, I'll start starting @ 5.8 or 5.9

sigh, I swore I would NOT become a "help the n00b with his screw-up" thread hijacker

thanks


Your Experience is like Water
I am like Rockwool

Last edited Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:04 pm | Scroll up

#17

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:18 pm
by P J | 72 Posts | 488 Points

Quote: Justa420Friend wrote in post #16
.

thank you. I've started having my Ph swing drop rather than raise (new to me) :
starting @ 5.5 and dropping = cal/mag lock-out. If this pattern continues, I'll start starting @ 5.8 or 5.9

sigh, I swore I would NOT become a "help the n00b with his screw-up" thread hijacker

thanks


You're good no worries.

In most cases [outside of the first three days of mixing nute] if your PH is dropping it is one of a few things.

1. Food is too strong and the plants are not eating and as the water evaporates the PPM's rise causing the PH to go lower. Are you topping off daily?

2. If you are topping off with water that has a low PH on a daily basis and it has a lower PH causing the water to drift down. I normally keep my backup water at 6.3 not to ever allow a PH drift in a downward direction caused by topping off.

3. Outside of that the only other issue would be with the food your choose to use or some additive causing issues.

Until you get it figured out, I would PH at 6.0 and never allow to the PH to drift below 5.5. That is just going to cause a PH lockout and end up killing your plants. Also try not to go more than about .2 or so in a 24 hr period.

This is the only thread I have going here, so if you have questions better to hit me here where I will see it.

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#18

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:35 pm
by 4u2sm0ke • Marijuana is good | 2.332 Posts | 10562 Points

Awesome work P.J.

thanks for sharing with us....Your experience with LED's is unquestionable ....You ROCK




Light travels faster then sound....... This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak

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#19

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:39 pm
by Justa420Friend | 633 Posts | 2284 Points

I top off @ 3-5 days and have swings (starting) from 5.5 (drifting) to 6.3 @ worst (always drifted UP)
I always had ppm drift UP parallel with Ph (worst was 1300ppm after 5 days)
only new nute was GH kool bloom (if I think about it, the downward PH swings probably started happening after that change)
when I topped-off I used 5.5 water (target #) I do a full drain and start new every 10-15 days

keep the kool bloom in the mix and learn the new drift patern or skip the new-nute ??
(nute: GH's flora 3 part @ bloom mix, Floralicious+, FloraNectar, KoolBloom ... Ph 5.5 , ppm: XXX)


Your Experience is like Water
I am like Rockwool

Last edited Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:55 pm | Scroll up

#20

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:47 pm
by P J | 72 Posts | 488 Points

Quote: Justa420Friend wrote in post #19
I top off @ 3-5 days and have swings (starting) from 5.5 (drifting) to 6.3 @ worst (always drifted UP)
I always had ppm drift UP parallel with Ph (worst was 1300ppm after 5 days)
only new nute was GH kool bloom (if I think about it, the downward PH swings probably started happening after that change)
when I topped-off I used 5.5 water (target #) I do a full drain and start new every 10-15 days

keep the kool bloom in the mix and learn the new drift patern or skip the new-nute ??
(nute: GH's flora 3 part @ bloom mix, Floralicious+, FloraNectar, KoolBloom ... Ph 5.5 , ppm: XXX)


I'd stick with your current program however drop all the amounts by say a 10% to weaken the total strength and see if that improves things for you. It may just be a matter of the food being a bit too strong, but I would top off with 6.3 to 6.5 over the 5.5 your currently using if I read that right.

When you say it id dropping, does that happen after say the first 3 days? The reason I ask is that is about what I see which is pretty normal.

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#21

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:13 am
by Justa420Friend | 633 Posts | 2284 Points

Zitat
When you say it id dropping, does that happen after say the first 3 days? The reason I ask is that is about what I see which is pretty normal.



yes
the swing from 5.5 to 4.8 happened over a 5 day period (the longest I go between top-offs or a drain/restart)
I did not take readings during those days

In the past, those 5 days would swing UP to (as high as) 6.3
dropping DOWN to 4.8 was a BIG surprise; same swing but in the opposite direction!

as long as I know which direction its going to go, I think I can deal with it
going UP = start @ 5.5 drift to 6
going DOWN = start @ 6 drift to 5.5
and take Ph readings more frequently

.


Your Experience is like Water
I am like Rockwool

Last edited Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:16 am | Scroll up

#22

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:50 am
by P J | 72 Posts | 488 Points

I would also add topping off more frequently and feel there is a good chance that is your issue. For instance I feed 2 times a day 12 hrs apart. 6 hrs after I feed I top off, mind you it is all automatic so I don't have to do it myself, but think you'll end up with a more accurate reading and a more stable condition.

I'd also still drop that food by 10 or so percent. Keep us posted!

Best of luck and hope that helps.

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#23

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:55 am
by NorCalHal | 14 Posts | 75 Points

How many plants would you flower in a 4x4 area under LED's?
I am trying to get a sense of what a 4x4 area would produce with LED tech.


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#24

RE: A look at PJ's journey with LED technology

in Showing off Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:45 pm
by P J | 72 Posts | 488 Points

Quote: NorCalHal wrote in post #23
How many plants would you flower in a 4x4 area under LED's?
I am trying to get a sense of what a 4x4 area would produce with LED tech.


On average 16 plants at 2 zips a piece flipped at 21 to 28 days veg from clone.

Strain dependent of course as I have had plants that go 6 with these same settings, and several that top at at just over a zip.

That would be at right around 700 watts.

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