#1

Ester's

in Nutrients Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:30 am
by zipflip | 57 Posts | 259 Points

"plant based esters" to be specific.....
been pndering and tryin to wrap my head round the whoel chemistry/if u will, of the whoel "Ester's" thing.
while back I was readin label on various sweeteners on the market like flora nectar, sweet, etc etc... and really curious what the heck it is they use to give it the aroma/flavor it has. ive asked folks at GH and botanicare both and got basically same answer. "plant based esters" or "plant alcohols"
now and then over the past year or so ive go on kix where I get in a research zone and get lost all up in the whole "Ester's" thing.
ive got the gist of what esters are and how they're derived etc.. as well as synthetic esters made in a lab to mimic the ones found naturally in plants. and these synthetic esters such as for example a few :
Isoamyl acetate - Banana

Methyl salicylate - Winter-green
Methyl butyrate - Pineapple
Ethyl cinnamate - Cinnamon
propionil butirate - peach




ethyl propionate rum
ethyl benzoate fruity
benzyl acetate peach
methyl butyrate apple
octyl acetate orange
n-propyl acetate pear
ethyl phenylacetate honey

these are just a few of probably hundred if not, thousands of different esters that have specific plant/fruit aromas to them. these synthetic ones everything I read states how, tho they're made in a lab, they're basically no different than the real deal. at least tahts what I gather. I think LOL
upon further research I found that all the basic flavors/aromas of all the different sweetenrs on the market are of the small list of what seems to be the most commonly and easily produced and more readily available than most others. also as I understand it, these synthetic esters are the staple of basically all types of products that have any sorta fragrances like cosmetic, perfumes, air fresheners etc etc...
now when I keep on with my researching and understandin of the whoel "ester's" world I seem to get quite a few hits that bring me into the whoel brewing world. makin ur own beer etc . and anytime "ester's are topic for discussion in any sorta home brew application it always has to do with the flavoring of home brews wines etc. but I dotn have much a understandin on the whoel homebrew world but maybe some u out there might who can shed some light on this part for me a lil. but when taliin esters and homebrew I read on bout how the whoel brewing reaction itself at some stage or wat have you its the byproduct that is an ester. (esterification I think its coined?) but which give it its specific flavor. idk if I even

idk im in between , thinkin I got grasp on this deal here and information overload so if anyone out there have any chemistry knowledge experience or exp wit esters or essential oils and such....
im really thinkin the main ingredient these companies use for they flavor int he sweeteners are tehse esters. I been usin few different ones forever now and bored of the different aromas/flavors that are there and wanna see if I can figure out the flavoring ingredient and how to concoct my own solution of sorts. don't have to be the same make up as the market sweeteners, I just wanan get the flavor ingredient and use plain molasses for the carbs vs the flora nectar or sweet etc.. iseem to have always got better results wit yield when usin molasses but I absolutely love the flavor and aroma that comes with usin these sweeteners. I dotn hate the natural taste of weed so relax. don't bash me into a corner her LOL.. I just like to tinker is all. :D
Zip

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#2

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:28 am
by umbra | 780 Posts | 4085 Points

this reminds me of someone pouring grape juice into a hydro tank, and then all the plants died. this is not how plants work. this is not how to create terpins. this is how you make artificially flavored, chemicals to do what? pretend that its dank? better to go to horticulture class instead of thinking of ways to make Frankenstein chemical laced weed


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#3

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:34 am
by Weedhopper | 1.198 Posts | 3981 Points

Different Strains and Phenos and a good CURE is what makes the taste,,not additives.


We are a form of Energy and Energy never dies,,IT JUST CHANGES FORMS. Im gonna be Dirt,,your gonna be POO. LOL
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#4

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:33 am
by umbra | 780 Posts | 4085 Points

Classical plant breeding uses deliberate interbreeding (crossing) of closely or distantly related individuals to produce new crop varieties or lines with desirable properties. Plants are crossbred to introduce traits/genes from one variety or line into a new genetic background. For example, a mildew-resistant pea may be crossed with a high-yielding but susceptible pea, the goal of the cross being to introduce mildew resistance without losing the high-yield characteristics. Progeny from the cross would then be crossed with the high-yielding parent to ensure that the progeny were most like the high-yielding parent, (backcrossing). The progeny from that cross would then be tested for yield and mildew resistance and high-yielding resistant plants would be further developed. Plants may also be crossed with themselves to produce inbred varieties for breeding.

Classical breeding relies largely on homologous recombination between chromosomes to generate genetic diversity. The classical plant breeder may also makes use of a number of in vitro techniques such as protoplast fusion, embryo rescue or mutagenesis to generate diversity and produce hybrid plants that would not exist in nature.


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#5

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:45 am
by Weedhopper | 1.198 Posts | 3981 Points

Nice post Bro.


We are a form of Energy and Energy never dies,,IT JUST CHANGES FORMS. Im gonna be Dirt,,your gonna be POO. LOL
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#6

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:09 am
by MR1 | 703 Posts | 2417 Points

Ethyl Maltol crystals. That is a sweetener I use in my e-juice for my e-cig,it is all the flavouring I use. I get it from http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/c-108-the-flavor-apprentice-world-of-flavors.aspx. All kinds of flavors for you to experiment with man.

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#7

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:03 pm
by zipflip | 57 Posts | 259 Points

this reminds me of someone pouring grape juice into a hydro tank, and then all the plants died. this is not how plants work. this is not how to create terpins. this is how you make artificially flavored, chemicals to do what? pretend that its dank? better to go to horticulture class instead of thinking of ways to make Frankenstein chemical laced weed<<< UMBRA - don't mean to come off like I got an ego,umbra, nor do I mean any disrespect being im sure u have still more grow exp than I but idk if u recall who I am, but this aint my first rodeo growin . ive heard and read almost exact same words u psted but on almost ever single forum ive researched on this subject matter. and yes, it is usually a buncha kids tryin to flavor they stuff wit koolaid or wat not to try swindle some one but trust me im not that lame as to go dumpin beer on my girls ever or grape juice etc and think im creatin some Frankenstein weed to be like "hey man check out my koolaid grape dank man". aint u ever used any of GH's floranectars, or botanicare sweet amog several other different flavored/aroma sweeteners. spite anything anyone can say or swear by or tell me I will tell you form mypersonal exp of years of growin and several harvests and doin comparisons wit different nutes and supps and even venturing into hydro and organics etc etc , that floranectar does in fact impart a hint of the "labeled" flavor over to the bud in the end as well as aroma. tho I will say that I have grown a few strains/and diff phenos of said strains and have noticed that hardly any if any at all of the "labeled flavor" has past on to the end product. that being said I have also grown strain after strain from clones and over and over done with and without of same exact phenos and always got that fruity flav like the banana and coconut or grape or cutrus pass over in the end product. who knows maybe im just nuts and imagining things but if so then so be it . I still know that the flavor carries over in the end product on several strains/phenmos ive grown.
now this whoel post isn't like one them dumpin grape juice on a plant posts either. im being more scientific here and basically tryin to figure out what it is they use in these sweeteners to pass on that flavor. like say is it essential oils or simple flavor extacts, etc tho I don't believe it could really be either unless ur able to figure a way to make oil soluble with water. not to mention the added emulsifiers and carrier agents they use to mix wit flavorings etc being possibly harmful to plants but what they usin in the sweeteners is what they call their "plant based esters" aka plant alcohols' and I can only assume form my research they use the basic raw niutty gritty bare form of these flavorings which they call "esters" which have fruity and floral and several other types of aromas and flavors. pretty much anything that tastes pr smells in this world and that is not natural, uses these so called 'fruity/floral esters" to give them their said flavor and aroma.
now whatever that all means for certain idk but tahts wat im tryin to figure out is all.
I just dotn want u getting the impression that im one them kiddies whos tryinto grow a plant in a coffee can under my bed with nite lites tryin to make a fortune of it wit grape koolaid and food coloring. im simply tinkering is all. no malicious intent or reason to it either . not tryint o make some toxic neon glowing starburst sparkle berry weed . just bored and sick of payin 20Bux a bottle and be limited to just a few diff flavors is all. plus when im running im organic soil now and just add water mostly and don't like the extra added micros in the sweeteners when I already have them within my mix so if I can isolate the flavoring ingredient or process to concoct my own that'll act the same but without the added stuff that comes in the bottles of these marketed flavored sweeteners and even have a wider array of options when comes to added flavors, id be happy. hence my quest.
now when I say that the flavors carries over intot he end product I don't mean its like blowin strait blueberry's or fruit out on the exhale wither. the sweeteners ive used just carry a touch of the flavor/aroma. just to give it an essence of it, if u will. .
if any u don't believe me, just try a side by side with and without the floranectar fruit or coconut or banana even with a few different strains. ive used em all and so long as ur not growin some dank sour strain that singes te nose hairs when u smell like some diesel etc, ibet ur gonna notice that essence carry over more as well. I mostly notice it when smoking and on the exhale. I can always taste the true genetic flavor and all that it just has a slight fruity essence to it . not like them drops u put on ur bowl of weed to flavor it either, nor is it like a flavored papper joint or blunt or any of that. nor is it harsh or burn like crud like someone sprayed it wit some peaches n crème glade air fresheber or soemthin either. right now im smoking some great white shark. I grew out 2 clones with no added market flavored sweeteners. just molasses. and 2 with floranectar pineapple rush. difference tween the two is when crackin a nug u get a slight zest of pineapple nothing more. the molasses one has an almost caramel smell/taste and the first grow I did with the host plant I got the clones from I grew all natural no added molasses or anything just water and that was it. yes it has a more of a natural smell taste etc and aint bad whatsoever but its just nice to have a lil something diff pr add a twist and ive done them flavor drops on my weed and flavor papers etc and that stuff all of it is the best way to ruin any weed IMO but that's just me. you might happene to like flvored bliunt wraps maybe idk but I don't. same with why so many feel the need to critique the whoel method of adding any sorta added flavor ot they weed. I also like mayo on my burgers instead of ketchup and prefer ketchup onmy steak. some like it plain some like mstard and so on.. I just like the way the added flav compliments some strains is all. SOME! but I kinda figured id get the sorta response I got here, proly the reason why when I first typed it up and puter froze up and lost post maybe it was a sign to jus keep on solo research I guess. LOL I think my post sounded a bit more intellectual and realistic than most kiddies contemplating dumpion fruit juice in their plants. im go soak some weed in some windex and turpentine next and try make me some diesel weed soakin in some kerosene JK haha. seriously im only joking, hey. and honest umba i still appreciate the post either way and mean no disrespect. just don't classify/think of me as nor respond to me like im one them lil kiddies wit koolaid. ok. i'll definitely make sure ur the first to know when i do figure this out tho. show im not jus pullin stuff out my back side.

MR1<<<<<< thanks for the link! its got me readin their product details etc now. seems to me like these are just ur basic esters they use to combine this an that to come up with said flavor/fragrance but like says in the ingredients the "propylene glycol" - see I actually have some this cutting agent ive used to cut the industrial strength fragrance oil compounds ive made into burning fragrance oils in the past and was thinkin along the same lines of usin this as a cutting agent to cut an ester to make miscible(soluble) into actual water bein itsan oil and oil n water don't mix of course. but the simple esters I listed above in first post are ones I believ that are readily miscible into water on their own and also why Im guessin that's why theres only so many flavors of these hydroponic sweeteners on the market. Make sense to you too? I really think im on the right track tryin to figure out the " ingredient they use yet LOL
maybe GH can just come up wit a non flavored product like the sugarcane nectar and just sell lil bottles of the flavor ingredient they use only make many more flavors avail that way. seems like it be easier than making and maketing the full bottles of so many diff flavors. sorta like them water flavor drops like that "Mio" only its not mio but just the flavor additive/ingredient they use in their flavored nectars only in a wider array of flavors. could even mix n match like make a pina colada or soemthin idk LOL just example of an idea is all. who knows maybe GH will read this and think "this guys got a idea here, we need get on it before he does" ..thinkin maybe im after formulas for my own marketing idea. LOL im jus playin i doubt it happen but who knows ive see crazier things happen in life. but really tho i think its a neat idea to market something of the sorts. i mean theyd only have to make one formula of floranectar sweetener and bottle it vs bottling sveral diff mixes/formulas per flavor. and just sell lil vial droppers of individual flavors to add to the base floranectar. or simply use the floranectar flavorless.. to each they own.
man i swear tho if i see something like this hit the market soon im a bury my head in a snow bank LMAO\\

Apple (Tart Granny Smith) Flavor

water soluble

A tart apple flavor reminiscent of Granny Smith apples, with a bit of cinnamon and spice.
Please note that this flavor can have a harmful effect on plastics.

Ingredients: Natural and Artificial Flavors, Propylene Glycol, bit of Ethyl Alcohol


Last edited Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:21 pm | Scroll up

#8

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:38 pm
by umbra | 780 Posts | 4085 Points

Hey zip, I have tried these esters. I was given them to run for a couple of different companies. My experience is that if you are not able to grow seriously dank weed, this will cover it up. But if you grow serious dank, the esters get in the way of the natural flavors. To me, it is equivalent to feminized seeds. Feminized seeds developed because people either didn't know how, or were unable to pick male breeding plants. The dominant traits in males are much more difficult to observe, so reversing a female was much easier. However, imo you are better off putting your energy at honing your grow skills so that you bring out all of the genetic potential of whatever you grow.


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#9

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:37 am
by zipflip | 57 Posts | 259 Points

I hear ya , man. really I do. im just the type a person that if theres something out there im nto supposed to know and if it has anything related to me or wat I do etc. then its like a drug I gotta have it(figure it out) it was just that I was told its a trade secret the ingredient/flavoring they use and tahts like holdin a dose from a feinding addict behind bullet proof glass where he can see it but cant get it LOL.
but I do agree with you and how it gets in the way of the true genetic flavor/aroma in ssome maybe a lot of diff strains. maybe that's a better way to how I put the whoel thing botu the flavor not comin thru on some really dank strains. I will admit it does give a lot of the the more earthy fuely like smellin strains a weird taste tho. when u say u was given these esters to try form coupel diff companies, are u talin the actual full products like GH floranectar and botanicare sweet etc , or u talkin just the simple basic raw flavoring ingredient on its own? im just tryin to figure out if for sure it is these same "ESTERS" that im talkin bout is all really. I feel like they are but im no chemist nor botanist or such so im not entirely sure on all the info ive absorbed.
I will say this tho. I used to grow a particular strain(no idea what it was for sure just a random bagseed I grew the very first grow I ever grew years back and I ended up revegin her and kept her as a bonsai mom for over 4 years til she musta got depressed and killed herself) but it was a very sweet but yet almost neutral aroma/flavored girl. and no matter what flavor of any flavored sweetener the market has for growing it literally complimented her in so many diff ways. the berry really tasted like berry the banana mad eher really taste like babanna and so on.
as far as covering up poor growin skils by maskin poorly grown weed wit added flavors, tahts not what my intent is either. im totally fine with the way my end product comes out. and just always keeps getti better with each and every harvest I pull down as well. I just have a lot of free time on my hands and im kind of a nut so when im curious I figure things out. LOL I also live under a rock and sometimes in a cave most my life too. haha
I also grew out 4u2smokes PBf2's and there was one particular phenol I revegged and kept as a mom for couple years as well. she was also a sweet but neutral smelling tasting pheno and the sweeteners really did her nice imo. the shnozzberries taste like shnozzberries... LMAO
for real tho I have absolutely no malintent in mind for wantin to figure this out either. just so u don't think of me as that kid wit a packet of koolaid is all LOL its just pure curiousity and determination. determination to figure out what someone tells me I cant know becuz its a secret but if u wanna feel the experience just keep buying our bottled of watered down molasses wit a few drops of flavoring which is literally micro pennies to the dollar to add to the watered down molasses" .. I don't like being owned or chained or anything like that due to my lack of knowledge of how things work and inability to therefore make my own for mysle fthe way I want. I also like to feel confident in what I know before tyring something out. simple education on whatever it is im tryin to do . im oppositionally defiant by nature so that should explain more
sorry I think I keep repeatin myself for some reason. (high and tired but yet too much coffee) im sure ya get my point .
but if u got any info that could help me in figuring what and how to use to get the flav results form silar usage as one does wit the market sweeteenrs like Sweet and flora nectar bud candy etc im all ears. u said bout tyrin out esters form comps.....?


Last edited Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:39 am | Scroll up

#10

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:25 am
by umbra | 780 Posts | 4085 Points

Hey Flip, I have been at a few conventions where nute manufacturers were there. After stopping at their booth and talking, they would give me product to do on line reviews. Last year at Spannabis, I was hangin with Remo and Big Mike with the Advanced Nutrient crew. They gave me so much stuff to try and review for them, I had to have it shipped to my house. Once I got home, the shipment came and it was a pallet filled with everything they make. GH did the same thing to me when they first came out with their organic line.
Like I said its just my opinion, nothing more. I like the taste of weed, I don't like to mix it with tobacco or other additives. Good luck


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#11

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:03 am
by surfinc | 1.744 Posts | 6373 Points

Quote: umbra wrote in post #10
Hey Flip, I have been at a few conventions where nute manufacturers were there. After stopping at their booth and talking, they would give me product to do on line reviews. Last year at Spannabis, I was hangin with Remo and Big Mike with the Advanced Nutrient crew. They gave me so much stuff to try and review for them, I had to have it shipped to my house. Once I got home, the shipment came and it was a pallet filled with everything they make. GH did the same thing to me when they first came out with their organic line.
Like I said its just my opinion, nothing more. I like the taste of weed, I don't like to mix it with tobacco or other additives. Good luck

Can i ask what you like or dont about advanced nutrient line?
I use that basic micro grow bloom with full line of adds... i like it personally and have read good and bad reviews...


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#12

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:54 am
by umbra | 780 Posts | 4085 Points

Hey surf I don't want to jack zip's post. I think AN products work, but are way over priced. I think most people could duplicate their stuff for much less.


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#13

RE: Ester's

in Nutrients Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:02 pm
by surfinc | 1.744 Posts | 6373 Points

there is one cat here in this area who always always has same taste and smell. I have thouht for a while he must be treating it during cure or dry...Buds vary usually in my experience but his taste nd aroma are like on lock down.. I wonder what he sprays to do that?


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