#1

Choosing males for Breeding

in Breeding Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:39 am
by ozzydiodude • The Weird One | 2.415 Posts | 11230 Points

Posted By Elephant Man

There have been alot of theories on how this is done....this is only one of them, but happens to be the one I agree with.

Dunno who wrote this, I found it on another forum...just posting it because it sums up my methods better than I could.

Quote:
Male Cannabis –
The male cannabis plant is essentially only useful for breeding.
The male plant makes very poor marijuana, being mostly leaves without the dense resinous floral clusters of the female the yield is miserable.

More importantly, the male of the species has virtually no potency in comparison to that of female cannabis.
The males do carry genes that influence the expression of ALL the traits listed above, but not many of them are directly observable in the male itself due to the male phenotype being markedly different from the female phenotype.

A male cannabis plant’s value is DEFINED by the quality of his daughters.

Naturally, when starting out with a large number of potential breeding individuals, one desires to “weed out” the undesirable individuals.

The female is easy to evaluate because all the traits favoring marijuana production are directly observable in the female.
It's a simple matter of growing & flowering the females to grade their performance and smoking the resulting marijuana.

The breeder then chooses only those females most closely matching the breeder's personal ideal to be used as seed parents.

The directly observable & important traits of male cannabis are as follows:

1. Resistance to hermaphrodism
2. Vigor
3. Stature
4. Maturation rate

All males expressing poor quality in any of these traits should be culled so as not to pass the weak trait on to the progeny.

Males are also be observed to have a certain scent and floral structure but the importance of these traits pale in comparison to those listed.

The potency of male plants, and especially the potency difference between individual males in a group, is generally too subtle to be measured by anything short of professional scientific laboratory equipment.
Moreover, there is no conclusive proof that the most potent male in a group actually creates the most potent female progeny, although it seems intuitive that that should be the case. The difficulty of determining a male plant's potency is a major hurdle to proving this link.

Thankfully, logic dictates that the potency of a male plant ITSELF isn’t very important, as we aren’t interested in growing males for marijuana production.

The value of a male lies entirely in the traits he consistently passes on to his daughters.

Therefore it’s unnecessary to identify the one male amongst a group of potential pollen donors with the greatest potency.

It’s far more logical to evaluate the female progeny of each male to define the potency of each male in the group.

Male cannabis individuals may be graded for quality by a controlled pollination of IDENTICAL female clones (one for each pollen donor).

This isolates the influence of the male by holding CONSTANT the influence of the female on each cross.

The seeds resulting from each clone are then grown and the progeny is graded to determine which of the crosses was the most successful.

When the group with the most desirable female progeny is identified, the responsible male has been identified as the most valuable.

Males can be kept in the vegetative state exactly like female “mother plants”, except that we should call them “dads” of course.

Clones from the favored male can be flowered as needed along with the breeding female(s) when seeds are desired.

Due to the clandestine nature of marijuana growing, in most cases there will only be about 10 males to be evaluated after culling all those with directly observable defects.

Breeding with larger populations is always preferable, as genetics is a statistical "game".

Commercial breeders would clearly benefit from the development of a reliable method of identifying males with the greatest potential for passing on high potency genes.

Perhaps someone will do the necessary research someday, but by following the above method, growers can accurately pin-point the ONE male in their small group which is the most potent...in the only meaningful sense of “male potency”.


Originally Posted by Mutt
I get 1-3 but 4....is the report saying to pick fast maturing males? or slow? As in how long it takes to show sex and show signs of maturity.

Hey Mutt - I interpret the article and #4 this way: The male is a good one, if the female offspring shows the proper female maturation rate the breeder is looking for. One male's genetics may extend the flowering time by two weeks which would not match "my" requirements of an 8 week maturation rate. The other male's genetics does give us the 8 week rate. This is the male I want to use for further breeding experiments.

I always wondered how you pick a "potent" male or one that has the flowering or other qualities that would be desirable. One has no idea until the male plant's "daughter" makes a bud preferable to what the breeder is trying to isolate.

Thanks Elephant Man!


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#2

RE: Choosing males for Breeding

in Breeding Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:42 am
by ozzydiodude • The Weird One | 2.415 Posts | 11230 Points

Originally Posted by Pot Belly
I always wondered how you pick a "potent" male or one that has the flowering or other qualities that would be desirable. One has no idea until the male plant's "daughter" makes a bud preferable to what the breeder is trying to isolate.

On several articles in my archives...it is recommended to do a smoke test on the male tips. Just as a sample. I do think a certain degree of potency can be checked...not nec. get you high...but with right pallette and clear mind could after while tune this in. This is not meant as smoking males as meds...but learning your own pallette and letting the plant speak if ya get what I mean.

Thanks PB for clearing up the "maturity" time...so its basically picking out what you want dominant in the traits. but the 8 week thing seems to be almost isolating hybrid traits and making a less sativa dom. hybrid. Which shortening up the flower time in the selection "might" not be what the breeder wants in the end product.
_________________

Elephant posted

Quote:
by Hick
"IMHO".. there lies the "clinker" .. not many of us, have the facility, or can accomodate, sufficient "numbers" for a proper selection process. Especially for males. An 'isolation' chamber of sorts, to fully grow and mature a large number of males to "select" from.

I couldn't agree more. In actuality, breeding in small populations or (even worse) with single males (1:1) could be said to be killing the mj gene pool one allele at a time.

Quote:
by Mutt
I get 1-3 but 4....is the report saying to pick fast maturing males? or slow? As in how long it takes to show sex and show signs of maturity.

The report is saying not to pick males at all...but pick their daughters. The report is saying a male can only be graded by his prodigy. After all, we are breeding for desirable fems...not males.

Quote:
by Mutt
On several articles in my archives...it is recommended to do a smoke test on the male tips. Just as a sample. I do think a certain degree of potency can be checked...not nec. get you high...but with right pallette and clear mind could after while tune this in. This is not meant as smoking males as meds...but learning your own pallette and letting the plant speak if ya get what I mean.

There is absolutely no proven connection with potent males having potent daughters. Potent males can create worthless females and vice versa and culling males on this criteria only decreases your gene pool and ends otherwise possible recombinations.

Quote:
by jjsunderground

but like hick said it is hard to find diversity in such limited stock.

Space < time....I imagine it could be done with clones and one male at a time, but you might see how long this could take....point is it could be done though.
___________


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#3

RE: Choosing males for Breeding

in Breeding Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:45 am
by ozzydiodude • The Weird One | 2.415 Posts | 11230 Points

Originally Posted by moaky
when breeding is it best to use a smaller pot so your plants don't get to huge while your waiting for the offspring to give you results? dot as powerful lights? i mean by the time you get the first result your original mother is going to be huge. never mind. if its the one you like then your probably taking cuts from it.

You want the parents to acheive as much growth as possible IMO to show full pheno expression. Smaller pots IME tend to create less branching and some stretch which is a product of enviro not a product of phenotype or genotype expression. It will fool you i think.
___________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutt
You want the parents to acheive as much growth as possible IMO to show full pheno expression. Smaller pots IME tend to create less branching and some stretch which is a product of enviro not a product of phenotype or genotype expression. It will fool you i think.


Genotype cannot be influenced. Phenotype is a result of 50% environment, and 50% Genotype. Therefore, Phenotypes can be influenced by environment, where Genotypes cannot. It is the exact reason different growers have different results w/ like strains.

You can also clone males. Which is what I do. I watch the characteristics of the plants I'm growing from germination thru preflower. I select males which possess the characteristics I'm seeking. Early flowering males are often less desireable due to the fact that the strongest males often show sex first, which IMO means they carry more male chromosomes.

When I take my cuts, I look at the stem structure, it is well known to experienced breeders that a more hollow stem usually is more productive. Hollow stems are more characteristic to drug type cannabis, where pithy stems often mean a more hemp type cannabis. I number these cuts to the male they were taken from and cull the males. As they mature more I eliminate those which do not possess the traits I seek.
I select by these traits:

1. Structure
2. Vigor
3. Cluster density
4. Scent

We all have our own techniques for male selection, and often, most growers do not have the space nor want to take the time to grow out males. Clone only mothers are often used, which IMHO is killing off the gene pool. The thing to remember is that we never know the full potential of a given strain if one specific pheno is isolated. In large populations of cannabis, we can find some variation among the same given strain from the same seed stock, therefore by finding one unique pheno and making it clone only is hindering any possiblities of find what the true potential of this strain could be.

Male selection is important, however we must realize that preserving various true breeding land races and your more stable true breeding hybrids for they are the foundation of what we have today. Also remember, many strains are the same, only renamed by clone only breeders by the unique phenotypes they possess.

This is a very important, and informative thread which I enjoy very much for learning is something I will always desire to improve my growing and breeding.
_________________________

IMO the MALE is the Most important in a breeding program.....The Dankiest the MAle...makes the DAnkiest beans...just my thaughts


take care and be safe
__________________
take care and be safe
4u2sm0ke


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#4

RE: Choosing males for Breeding

in Breeding Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:50 am
by sin inc | 101 Posts | 934 Points

well i have to say that i lean in with mutt. i wish i had the room to grow out 60 are more at a time it would have helped me alot with my ewd#2 .it took me from 2006 till know to get this strain the way i wanted it Structure wise because i deal in 20 or less groups because i have always limited space and time plus money... males are a big part of my grow and they take up alot of room in a 2x2 or 3x3 space. thats why after 3 weeks i start to yank out all weak and disfigured .then after they show sex. for me its 3-5 weeks i yank all male that don't fit my list like mutts but with some others things added..some grows i have no usable males come to thing of it. the 2006 f1 mother donor for is my profile pic . wow how time flys.....

1. [very red stem plants seam to be best quality ] if they do not carry that badge they do not pass... i know corny
1. Structure/ height / under three feet
2. Vigor/ very close to the stem branch system .
3. able to do well in very small soil pots and tents. hyro is now in testing.
3. Cluster density for plants under three feet.
4. Scent/ color 10% of the leaves turn purple at week 7-9 weeks


Last edited Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:16 am | Scroll up

#5

RE: Choosing males for Breeding

in Breeding Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:28 am
by umbra | 780 Posts | 4085 Points

if you use short flowering males, eventually you will be breeding ruderalis. I like structure and health. I always do a stem rub, but my choice is more about how it flowers. I prefer males that start flowering from the middle of the plant and not the top.

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#6

RE: Choosing males for Breeding

in Breeding Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:03 am
by sin inc | 101 Posts | 934 Points

well umbra i will have to disagree on the ruderalis . just because strains are breed to grow short and stocky with less root mass does not mean that they rudys. pure rudys are in a whole different gene pool then your standard 12/12. yes alot of them are short plants but thats where it ends

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